Safety Stop/Sicherheits Stop

[scubatinoo]

swissdiving Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think I made my position on this subject
> abundanltly clear.

I still do not understand you...

[sailor]

Hi,

so if we have an unlimited number of CFs ( now we have CF III ) I'll change my mind aswell.
Let the sporties pay the extra money for a MK2 and have their safety stop.
But only if it is deselectable by CF of course.

Reiner

[mrbredon]

Besides the fact that the OSTC is clearly designed for tecnical diving I would really like to have a (switchable) safety stop.
During vacation I am mostly doing recrational diving.
A feature like my old Suunto had would really increase the comfort.
The computer simply starts to count the time between approx. 6m and 5m and as soon as 3min are reached the symbol for the suggested safety stop is switched of.

Axel

[gorcio]

I will vote against. Soon, You will have to carry a list of CFs to check/change before every dive, depending whether You had done before a cave, CCR, or had come back from leisure diving in Egypt. Some do 5m/3', others 5m/5', others 3m/3' ... which implies min 2 CFs to be used.

[scubatinoo]

gorcio Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I will vote against. Soon, You will have to carry
> a list of CFs to check/change before every dive,

That's the "dark side" of the Custom Functions: The more
you have, the more confusing it is...

> depending whether You had done before a cave, CCR,
> or had come back from leisure diving in Egypt.

In this cases you have to change your CF's anyway,
and not only one... So i'd rather see an option to
hide CF's related to CCR when i'm diving OCR. This would
bring much more overview...


> Some do 5m/3', others 5m/5', others 3m/3' ...
> which implies min 2 CFs to be used.

A typicaly Safety Stop recommended by the markets leaders
happens at 5 Meters for 3 Minutes. Not on 6 and not on 3.
So it would be just one CF to be used. In this case i will
say: Keep on the market, and not on individuals.

[scubatinoo]

Hahaha, i was just reading the old stuff again, when i
discovered this one:

swissdiving Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If there is such a thing as a saftey stop then you
> have to REMEMBER to look at the computer when you
> get to 3 meters and wait till the 5 minutes are
> up.

So i think that many of you guys need this option of
a safety stop. Just to learn again where and how long
it is...
(:P)
Hint: 3 Minutes @ 5 Meters

[Chilihead]

ok... the saftystop (3min@5m) starts after i finished the 6m-stops ... or have i desent to 5m after my 3m-stops

x-min@6m ... 3min@5m ... x-min@3m
or
x-min@6m ... x-min@3m ... desent to 5m and 3min@5m

:S

i'm AGAINST THE SAFTY STOPP

and then we will have the same problems like with CF55???

[scubatinoo]

Chilihead Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ok... the saftystop (3min@5m) starts after i
> finished the 6m-stops ... or have i desent to 5m
> after my 3m-stops

Ridiculous! Even my Cressi Archimede 1 can handle the difference between deco and safety stops... And me too.

[gorcio]

scubatinoo Wrote:

> And me too.

Which means it is not necessary.

[DiverM]

Actually my Suunto computer advices a safety stop of 3 minutes to be conducted between a depth of 6 to 3 meters.

On most, if not all, of my non-deco dives there is plenty of interesting underwater life between 6 to 3 meters to spend eternity there. Of course I realize that I conduct my diving in the "Zeeuwse Delta" in the Netherlands and all but a few spots can be dived from shore. Facilitating a very easy and comfortable safety stop when needed.

I would appreciate the addition of a safety stop. Choice of on and off via one CF. Counting down 3 minutes between 6 and 3 meters when 'deco' is false. When 'deco' is true you're doing the stop anyway...

Though i've managed to reach the no-stop limit at 29m visiting a wreck, and off-gassed sufficiently at when visiting two other wrecks at 12 and 9 meters in the same dive to have the OSTC show NDL again. Almost needless to say I did perform two more stops at 6 and 3 meters not ascending from those depths before the GF was below 30%.

In short, Needed? No. Appreciated? Yes!

[fishwithlungs]

Well guys,this subject is getting ridiculous already.

If we are to follow "market's leaders" recommendations for a safety stop,why not start from the very beginning?I mean from the Medical statement that every diver answers and signs before becoming a diver .
Clearly,someone that doesn't remember when he got to the now famous 5 metre depth and cannot add 3 minutes to that time,must have lied about his mental ability.And people like this then go and buy advanced computer only to complain that it doesn't beep at them when violating common sense,or that it doesn't do the time keeping for the whole looong 3 minutes.If i don't remember when the safety stop started,I can count 3 minutes again,it wouldn't hurt.And don't even start with "not enough gas,too cold,boring"etc,that only proves that something during your diving education went awfuly wrong.We are talking about safety stop,so if you miss it no big deal,if you think it is(I do) then keep an eye on it...

Sincerely recommended would be:
Right button(Stopwatch)>Left button(Menu)>Right button(confirm menu)>2xLeft button(ResetAvr)>Right button(confirm ResetAvr) and voila! not only you have the time starting from zero to infinity in min and sec,you can as well see the variations from the depth during that time interval.

Difficult?Then I buy your OSTC for a good price and you can buy yourself a(secondhand) set of golf clubs

Tough but true,or will anybody require that the computer will pull the second stage out of his mouth when it's time for a gas switch and then shove in the correct one?

Regards,

Richard

P.S.:For one I would rather have the OSTC not playing dead below 130m than showing safety stop.The first mentioned i cannot compute out of my head,the later,well,I can't.

[scubatinoo]

fishwithlungs Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tough but true,or will anybody require that the
> computer will pull the second stage out of his
> mouth when it's time for a gas switch and then
> shove in the correct one?

Following your arguments we can turn our OSTC into simple
OLED bottom timers, because we don't need any reminder for deco
stopps (you can write them on a table), and we don't need
a hint for a gas switch, because we know when to switch gases,
and so on...

Fact is: OSTC can be used for recreational diving within the
"no deco" range. I think the computer should support this dives
the same way like it supports technical dives. This is what a
dive computer is supposed to do.

[mrbredon]

Thanks Scubatinoo !

The feature of the safety stop should be a rather easy on.

I is surely easy to use the stop watch functionality, but I would really like to have the safety stop feature.
Just because it's more comfortable - is this really so bad ?

And if it is switchable via CF, everybody should be happy.

just my 2 cents
mrbredon

[heinrichsweikamp]

mrbredon Wrote:
> And if it is switchable via CF, everybody should
> be happy.

ON/OFF, duration and depth -> 3 CFs. 3min at 3m for a dive of one minute to four meters?
Ok, another pair of CFs configuring the threshold when we should show this safety stop.
Saftety stop after doing the deco stops? Or only if the decostop was shorter then the safety stop. Only the 3m stop or all stops?
If I set last deco to 6m, should I do a safety stop at 3m or at 6m?
When I descend during/after my safety stop again, should the safety stop be displayed again?

These are some of the reasons (feature creep) we'll wait with the integration of the safety stop feature.

Cheers,
Matthias

[fishwithlungs]

scubatinoo:
>Following your arguments we can turn our OSTC into simple
>OLED bottom timers, because we don't need any reminder for deco
>stopps (you can write them on a table), and we don't need
>a hint for a gas switch, because we know when to switch gases,
>and so on...

Yes,we can turn the OSTC into bottom timer,we have Gauge mode...but I prefer OC GF10/80 for tech and OC Buhlmann set to roughly match Suunto's predictions for NDL dives,with switch hints enabled.Written backup in wetnotes plus ratio deco,but often quite a change of plan is unavoidable.Then it is up to experience to merge RD with Buhlmann,worst case being longer shallow stops from OSTC.
Comparing multigas multiswitch dives' complex stops to the simpliest of calculations(adding 3 to the current number) at the end of a NDL dive at the depth of 5 metres is a little simplistic imho.
So I am far from suggesting to remove any of the functions already applied,I simply value the somehow limited amount of CFs and would like to see them populated by more useful options,like real-time depth curve in divemode,or ability to set depths in gaslist for descent/ascent separately,or to toggle the "death" of OSTC in 130m off(assuming RESPONSIBILITY for doing so),just a few.

Many of us use OSTC for all dives,and it supports "no deco" dives to the same extent as "deco" ones.If a stop is required,it is displayed.Pushing to the limits of the table will result in having stop(s) displayed on OSTC,tested.Same for tables,safety stop is required only in similar cases.
And the "regular"safety stop we always do before final ascent - do we really need a reminder of what we do on every dive?

Although OSTC can be used for recreational dives,it was not primarily designed to do so,still all the necessary(and more) info is there,and in my opinion asking for safety stop always displayed is like insisting on coffeecup holder inside cockpit of F1 monopost.
This request is about something already there,check the above mentioned sequence,it takes less than 2 seconds.


Quote from HW homepage:

>What this OSTC 2N dive computer is not:
>Competition for cheap mass products for the occasional diver.

>What this OSTC 2N dive computer is:
>An experimental platform for all experienced divers who are interested in the >theory of diving and who value maximum transparency and individual adaptabily .

>There are already several high-performance dive computers on the market-- not >quite a dime a dozen, but enough to give users a choice of products.


Chill out,buy stuff that suits your needs


Regards,

Richard

[scubatinoo]

...and one CF for the saftey stop color, please! (:P)

Honestly one CF is enough for turning ON/OFF this feature. Everything else can be hardcoded and does not require any further CFs... In my eyes it's just a simple feature - don't make it a big deal.

[DiverM]

To avoid feature creep don't make the safety stop parameters configurable. Just a simple ON/OFF.

And I suggest the following standard conditions/parameters:

• Gone into deco? Safety stops switched off for remainder of dive, you are doing deco stops now.
• Dive depth 3m and store (stop) time for the remainder of the dive if these depth boundaries are exceeded. Reset time to 3min when diving depth reaches >10m.

This is the way Suunto and Mares have implemented the Safety Stop.

And IMHO this is one of the best options for a Safety Stop implementation.

Also I think a configurable (more options than ON/OFF) Safety Stop is ridiculous.

[gorcio]

To avoid feature creep - do not implement it please.

Guys - if only You focused, You would be able to keep track of a depth for whole 3/5 minutes. A bit more concentration, and You will remember the whole plan (that Yo can put on the plate as well). And then ... use Your computer when deviation from the plan occurs. What will be next if this one goes through ? Implementation of different diving tables, so that when You do leisure dive, You can use PADI RDP or CMAS Navy 94 tables or whatever ? Come off ...

[heinrichsweikamp]

Hi,

For those who didn't notice: I deliberately went over the top here. Besides satisfying the majority of the OSTC users I'm still not a fan of computer indicated safety stops. And this has nothing to do with the fact that the OSTC was intend for technical diving.


Regards,
Matthias

[Felini]

Bin auch gegen safety stops.

Matthias wrote:

> the OSTC was intend for technical diving.

...und so kann es bleiben.

[heinrichsweikamp]

fishwithlungs Wrote:
> P.S.:For one I would rather have the OSTC not
> playing dead below 130m than showing safety

This is hardware-related. Unfortunately it can't be updated via a firmware update.

Don't use the OSTC for dives below 120m.

Regards,
Matthias

[Laurie_the_Knot]

In my opinion the dive computers 'for the masses' include safety stops because many of the users are insufficiently aware of the effects of pressure on the absorbtion of gases in the body during diving. For that reason these dive computers insist on a safety stop to ensure their users don't get bent and they don't face legal issues on the serviceability of their products.

I would have expected that most, if not all, users of HW dive computers are well aware of the effects of pressure and gas absorbtion and manage their dives responsibly. Additionally I would expect that HW dive computer users will have been diving for long enough to be aware of the benefits of mandatory and voluntary stops during ascent.

For these reasons I believe it unnecessary to consume any CFs to provide for safety stops. The OSTC currently has more than enough features/options to allow the user to manage a voluntary 'safety' stop at the depth local convention recommends.

[boefst]

In my opinion, the OSTC must be one of the best dive computers on the market. With its easy handling and reading, it suits everyone. From the novice diver, breathing air at 18meters, to the most experienced technical diver, breathing all sorts of gasses at 100meters. From divers with hawk eyes, to the ones with poor eye sight.
It suits shallow reef diving in unlimited visibility as well as cave diving and deep wreck penetration in close to zero visibility. It’s a wonderful piece of equipment during night dives.

Just because there are CF:s to configure, you don’t have to play with them all the time.
The novice diver can easily get help with the first and perhaps only configuration he or she need on this Forum and after that it’s as good as, or better than any “low-end” dive computer.

It is possibly the only dive computer you need to buy for the entire diving career if you can afford it and take good care of it.
If you never expand your diving beyond air at 18meters, I think it is still one of the best dive computers there is.

The only thing I see as a drawback for the novice diver, who is interested enough to buy a configurable dive computer, is the missing safety-stop feature.

If there is room for more features, why not implement yet another useful one? Like the “Suunto-type-safety-stop” discussed above? Configurable ON or OFF to take over when diving within the no-decompression limits?

Actually, I don’t think it has much to do with the divers knowledge of the tissues on- and off-gassing. I think it’s just a nice-to-have-feature in a nice-to-have-dive-computer...

[Smiler1968]

boefst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my opinion, the OSTC must be one of the best
> dive computers on the market. With its easy
> handling and reading, it suits everyone. From the
> novice diver, breathing air at 18meters, to the
> most experienced technical diver, breathing all
> sorts of gasses at 100meters. From divers with
> hawk eyes, to the ones with poor eye sight.
> It suits shallow reef diving in unlimited
> visibility as well as cave diving and deep wreck
> penetration in close to zero visibility. It’s a
> wonderful piece of equipment during night dives.
>
> Just because there are CF:s to configure, you
> don’t have to play with them all the time.
> The novice diver can easily get help with the
> first and perhaps only configuration he or she
> need on this Forum and after that it’s as good
> as, or better than any “low-end” dive
> computer.
>
> It is possibly the only dive computer you need to
> buy for the entire diving career if you can afford
> it and take good care of it.
> If you never expand your diving beyond air at
> 18meters, I think it is still one of the best dive
> computers there is.
>
> The only thing I see as a drawback for the novice
> diver, who is interested enough to buy a
> configurable dive computer, is the missing
> safety-stop feature.
>
> If there is room for more features, why not
> implement yet another useful one? Like the
> “Suunto-type-safety-stop” discussed above?
> Configurable ON or OFF to take over when diving
> within the no-decompression limits?
>
> Actually, I don’t think it has much to do with
> the divers knowledge of the tissues on- and
> off-gassing. I think it’s just a
> nice-to-have-feature in a
> nice-to-have-dive-computer...


Nicely put.

[scubatinoo]

Laurie_the_Knot Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> For these reasons I believe it unnecessary to
> consume any CFs to provide for safety stops. The
> OSTC currently has more than enough
> features/options to allow the user to manage a
> voluntary 'safety' stop at the depth local
> convention recommends.

Honestly, we are using CF's for changing colors of some text or to setting up some logbook numbers... This has nothing to do with technical diving or diving at all. So called "Safety Stops" are part of recreational (=no stopp / no deco limit) dives and
are not implemented. I still don't understand the logic behind your arguments.